Curse

Lanier · Dec 11, 2011, 03:40 PM // 15:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

I thought he brief Leadership buff a few updates ago was a taste for sure of a paragon tweak/update. Honestly, eles were NOT that high up on my list, and the updates look... less than steller? Some of the skills look good, but I think a lot of it is unnecessary in light of the fact that the HM change would've solved eles problem right there.

This is exactly what I thought. An update to ele skills in addition to the HM armor update seems like excessive buffing. I would have rathered if anet had added the HM armor update first and then reassessed the situation to see if an ele skill update was warrented.

FengShuiDove · Dec 11, 2011, 04:18 PM // 16:18

I like a lot of these ideas. Eles have lagged in two key areas: damage output in HM and general utility. I bring very few hero bars anymore that don't have something to offer offensively and defensively. I can't remember the last time I played with a dedicated heal/prot or hybrid Monk hero outside of early areas.

My basic her build is an ST Prot, SoS with hex removal or extra resto, Panic Domination, Illusion (Shared Burden or Inept), Command Paragon (SYG, Fall Back, GftE), Icy Veins Resto, and one of a couple other hero bars -- Smite Monk finds it way in the last spot a lot but I play with a few others.

I'd love for Ele to be viable to replace any number of the above builds. SoS is far from my favorite skill, the highlight of the Rit build for me is ARage and Splinter, which could easily be brought along on a primary Ele. The Illusion Mesmer that provides good damage and a little utility along with it isn't my favorite, and the open spot is malleable anyway. In essence, my hope is that this update makes Eles viable to at least play with. They've sat for far too long.

In fact with all the recent updates, I've been a proponent of just giving horrible classes their moment in the spotlight. Dervish won't be in GW2; break the heck out of them if you want. Honestly, balance is rather shot anyway. The only areas you can't complete fairly easily with seven heroes are those that require gimmicks (thinking UW specifically and DoA HM which is basically impossible without loads of PvE skills).

Jeydra · Dec 11, 2011, 04:35 PM // 16:35

@above - just pointing out that not only are Elementalist heroes viable, they are outright superior to some of the heroes you listed (the Illusion Mesmer, Command Paragon, Icy Veins Resto and I will even argue ST Prot).

Amy Awien · Dec 11, 2011, 04:42 PM // 16:42

Wouldn't the indirect damage skills, that target an ally but then do damage to foes, provide for an extra challenge to SF, in those area's where these ele-skills are used by mobs?

Kunder · Dec 11, 2011, 05:21 PM // 17:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Wouldn't the indirect damage skills, that target an ally but then do damage to foes, provide for an extra challenge to SF, in those area's where these ele-skills are used by mobs?

The effect-based ones will be really annoying (snare) or potentially dangerous (knockdown). Pulsating AoEDoTs shouldn't be a big issue, the low individual packet damage gets eaten up by damage reduction very easily,

Daesu · Dec 11, 2011, 05:58 PM // 17:58

I think those current 1-hit ele kills from HM monsters would be even more interesting after the buffs.

Maybe skills like Spoil Victor would become part of the hero team meta with the added hp of HM monsters. Conversely some dervish skills that rely on target hp being lower would become more effective for monsters, so monster dervishes maybe more dangerous than they are now.

Personally, I dont think they should reduce HM monster armor and buff their hp. That would impact the performance of all classes and for all I know it may even be a general nerf to ALL classes if they buff hp too high (imagine all normal monsters have boss-like hps).

If they want to buff eles, they can simply buff up their damage high enough to be effective in HM without impacting general PvE itself.

DiogoSilva · Dec 11, 2011, 06:13 PM // 18:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

This is exactly what I thought. An update to ele skills in addition to the HM armor update seems like excessive buffing. I would have rathered if anet had added the HM armor update first and then reassessed the situation to see if an ele skill update was warrented.

I feel that both updates have distinct aims.

HM changes alone would bring the elementalists damage back, yes, but everything they would do would revolve around Searing Flames/ Savannah Heat. Playing Normal Mode gives a good idea. Fire elementalists are strong, air sucks, water sucks, and earth is midly viable.

This update is not trying to make the elementalists directly stronger damage-wise, it's simply increasing their number of useful elites, because right now most are underpowered. And most of those changes to not seem to overshadow (at first glance) the best options eles have right now. They either sacrifice damage for utility, or are more dangerous for higher risk play.

Likewise, part 2 of the update will focus on cross-elemental combos, which is also another weak point of the profession.

Quote:

If they want to buff eles, they can simply buff up their damage high enough to be effective in HM without impacting general PvE itself.

And then elementalists would be grossly overpowered for Normal Mode, and HM elementalist bosses would one-hit kill entire parties. The source of the problem lies on the way HM works.

Marverick · Dec 11, 2011, 06:14 PM // 18:14

They should just make Elemental Lord give armor penetration to Elementalist spells instead of screwing with health/armor ratios.

DiogoSilva · Dec 11, 2011, 06:21 PM // 18:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marverick

They should just make Elemental Lord give armor penetration to Elementalist spells instead of screwing with health/armor ratios.

And which skill slots would be left for that? Eles must currently be stuck with an attunement, several times with a cover enchantment; they still need the glyph of lesser energy or something else; and hopefully, a snare as well.

With elemental lord in addition to that, and they would have, what, three slots left for damage?

And without this skill update, their only viable builds would basically rely on fire/ earth Aoe damage, which happen to have pretty big recharges.

We would be left solely with Invoke Lightning builds, and those don't even need the extra armor penetration that much. They already inherently have it + cracked armor; it wouldn't even fix the problem with air magic, which is the reliance on single-target damage.

It would change little for players, and nothing for heroes.

It would also still keep armor-ignoring damage too strong compared to armor-sensitive damage. The HM changes also helps physical classes, the dervish especially because it is loaded with earth/ cold damage.

Axel Zinfandel · Dec 11, 2011, 06:31 PM // 18:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marverick

They should just make Elemental Lord give armor penetration to Elementalist spells instead of screwing with health/armor ratios.

This is what I thought before, but I actually disagree now. Buffing health and reducing armor ends up doing a lot....

1) Reduces the time or even effectiveness of current farming
2) Makes ALL armor sensitive damage more viable, not JUST elementalists.
3) Keeps armor ignoring damage as a viable build structure (I doubt they'll simply reduce armor levels to normal-mode equivilent. Armor will be more, just not as high as right now)
4) Throws skills that react on enemies with higher health in the game, possibly.

Depending on how much health is given, more health means longer staying power. The difference between GW now and GW years ago is that you couldn't spike down entire mobs of enemies in a few seconds. Mobs are threatening in a balanced party setting when they are alive long enough to start doing stuff to you (discounting SY!, which single-handedly nullifies this.)

So TLDR is that what they're doing can potentially solve a lot of problems, not just elementalist problems.

Though, I tend to personally think Rangers and Paragons deserved looking at more than eles, and probably in that order. Double-cast skills look interesting enough, and a little flavor thrown in certainly is welcome, but at least with the HM changes eles would -have- viable builds. All paragons have is a very boring, very overpowered imbagon, and the vast majority of Ranger skills are useless and seem to end up only leaving a barrage build, which is cool for some people, but for people like me, it looks boring and 'wait, couldn't I just do that on a sin or something?'

And hey, I may be going a little harsh here, but I've not played GW in a good while. It's been hard finding reasons to come back and I've given up on looking to skill balances for hope (I honestly didn't think they were doing that anymore. this is a surprise.). Paragons, and lessly rangers, were probably the one thing that, if tweaked, would get me back to playing.

Don't get me wrong, the proposed changes look good. could use a bit more splitting for PvP it looks like, but good job. I just kinda wish you guys would have thrown the HM changes in with some ranger/paragon tweaking and just saw how things went with eles before focusing on them, because like I said before... eles may have been fire-centric for ages and need the flavor badly, but at least people still have, would have a reason to play them.

jazilla · Dec 11, 2011, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by FengShuiDove

In fact with all the recent updates, I've been a proponent of just giving horrible classes their moment in the spotlight. Dervish won't be in GW2; break the heck out of them if you want. Honestly, balance is rather shot anyway. The only areas you can't complete fairly easily with seven heroes are those that require gimmicks (thinking UW specifically and DoA HM which is basically impossible without loads of PvE skills).

I agree with this. I want to see a split for the Motivation line. Bring back PvE Motivation from around release of NF.

I love the Ele changes. Build diversity will be pretty great.

Now all they need to do besides the Para changes is to take Ranger spirit cast times in PvE down to 1 second, and lower trap times in PvE along with damage so that Rangers can still use traps but not gimmick areas with them.

cthulhu reborn · Dec 11, 2011, 07:45 PM // 19:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

This is what I thought before, but I actually disagree now. Buffing health and reducing armor ends up doing a lot....

1) Reduces the time or even effectiveness of current farming
2) Makes ALL armor sensitive damage more viable, not JUST elementalists.
3) Keeps armor ignoring damage as a viable build structure (I doubt they'll simply reduce armor levels to normal-mode equivilent. Armor will be more, just not as high as right now)
4) Throws skills that react on enemies with higher health in the game, possibly.

I've been thinking about what you said here and then it suddenly hit me. Which class really would suffer most from these HM changes?

Well, let's see, which class heavily depends on armour ignoring damage and life degen? Oh....the necromancer.

Depending on how big the changes are, this HM update could potentially make any blood or curses build less effective. I know that people usually use necro heroes for MM and restoration builds, but the blood and curses lines are full of life stealing and degen skills. They will become less effective when the enemies have more hitpoints.

Personally I think that this update, when it comes, will have to address that and I'd rather they did that right away. I wish they would nerf the necro restoration healer builds because they are basically better at it than ritualists and that's lame really. Sure I use em but I would find it refreshing if that was taken away. But no instead they are going to make blood and curses builds even harder.

Blood elites all revolve around armour ignoring damage, energy gain or life regeneration.

Curses elites tend to revolve around life degen and some armour ignoring damage as well.

And a lot of the normal skills follow suit. I see this as a bad sign for necro players.

Xenomortis · Dec 11, 2011, 08:38 PM // 20:38

Blood magic has sucked for a very long time outside of the amplifying skills.
SS is going to be nerfed a little, but it's still a 'enemy mob dies eventually' button.
Sure armour ignoring damage is getting nerfed across the board, but the force amplifiers the Nec has will still blow everything else away.

Axel Zinfandel · Dec 11, 2011, 09:02 PM // 21:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by cthulhu reborn

I've been thinking about what you said here and then it suddenly hit me. Which class really would suffer most from these HM changes?

Well, let's see, which class heavily depends on armour ignoring damage and life degen? Oh....the necromancer.

Depending on how big the changes are, this HM update could potentially make any blood or curses build less effective. I know that people usually use necro heroes for MM and restoration builds, but the blood and curses lines are full of life stealing and degen skills. They will become less effective when the enemies have more hitpoints.

Personally I think that this update, when it comes, will have to address that and I'd rather they did that right away. I wish they would nerf the necro restoration healer builds because they are basically better at it than ritualists and that's lame really. Sure I use em but I would find it refreshing if that was taken away. But no instead they are going to make blood and curses builds even harder.

Blood elites all revolve around armour ignoring damage, energy gain or life regeneration.

Curses elites tend to revolve around life degen and some armour ignoring damage as well.

And a lot of the normal skills follow suit. I see this as a bad sign for necro players.

Armor ignoring damage hasn't been reduced, armor sensitive damage has increased a bit. I think it is very likely that the armor will still be high enough to not negate the usefulness of armor ignoring damage. I don't think necros would suffer much, they already have PLENTY of roles and builds that won't be messed up much with these changes.

Also, degen is already pointless to use in PvE, even in normal mode.

HigherMinion · Dec 11, 2011, 09:02 PM // 21:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Blood magic has sucked for a very long time outside of the amplifying skills.
SS is going to be nerfed a little, but it's still a 'enemy mob dies eventually' button.
Sure armour ignoring damage is getting nerfed across the board, but the force amplifiers the Nec has will still blow everything else away.

Thankfully, Mark of Pain was already overkill damage, so now it may be just excellent at what it does.

Kunder · Dec 11, 2011, 09:13 PM // 21:13

Degen and life steal sucked in PvE and no one used them. If they were removed from player's bars entirely not a single PvEer would miss them.

Necros have 3 High-End builds: MM, AP/Curse, and Blood.

MM gets a large boost from lower armor, depending on armor values its almost a free OoU. MMs already output obscene damage, now its obscene +1.

AP/Curse (aka MoP) has one of the best AoE damage skills already, done right it overkills enemies so fast that them lasting 1.5s instead of 1s won't bother you. The main nerf is to the shouts or EVAS which are now less effective for triggering AP.

Blood loses out a bit on account of the +damage stuff not scaling, but the other support skills like Dark Fury still work just as well.

Overall, Necromancers probably get a buff on average. Blood builds I estimate as relatively rare, while MMs are incredibly popular and AP builds are generally run with other necromancers providing minions to trigger MoP anyway.

Assassins/Rits/Mesmers/Rangers all rely on armor ignoring damage more than necromancers.

Assassins take a huge nerf since the only armor-affected damage they do is 7-17 +20% + 15% daggers. Rangers are the same except with slightly higher numbers on the base attack.

Mesmers are 100% armor ignoring but at least have some some outside utility, and WW spam falls into the "so imbalanced that even nerfed its still imbalanced" category.

Rit's main damage ability is SW which ignores armor, but at least its still VERY strong when used right (effectively a slightly weaker but easier to use MoP). Spirits get hurt a lot though, so there isn't much left to deal damage outside of DwG gimmicks or Spirit Rift.

Reformed · Dec 11, 2011, 09:20 PM // 21:20

How about as an alternative they just go the route of HM UW since this will most likely apply (and stack with the existing change) there anyways? Drop AR levels some fixed amount by profession, sure, but rather than buff hp into orbit just give everything in HM passive regen or a mix of the two? I'm thinking specifically about how shitty things like Mindblades are going to be after this. So potentially they'd receive the benefit of the +7 regen they have now and a reversal of the modest hp lowering as a tradeoff along with everything else down there.

As for the solo farming bit...hard to get worked up until they show some numbers. I can't imagine this will have any positive effect on Vaettir (among other things) which is a mainstay of event item farming. Players adapt, that's the name of the game, I just get the impression there is going to be a lot of collateral damage by taking this route to fix things for eles.

HigherMinion · Dec 11, 2011, 09:24 PM // 21:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Rit's main damage ability is SW which ignores armor, but at least its still VERY strong when used right (effectively a slightly weaker but easier to use MoP). Spirits get hurt a lot though, so there isn't much left to deal damage outside of DwG gimmicks or Spirit Rift.

If Splinter Weapon triggers MoP, is it armour ignoring damage or is it physical damage?

Kunder · Dec 11, 2011, 09:38 PM // 21:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

If Splinter Weapon triggers MoP, is it armour ignoring damage or is it physical damage?

It is armor ignoring physical damage. As far as the game is concerned the type of damage has no bearing on whether it ignores armor or not. Whirling Defense is another skill that deals physical damage, triggers MoP, but ignores armor. Attack skills in general ignore armor even though the damage is physical.

Whether this is a bug or not is debatable. Ancestor's Rage is armor ignoring Elemental damage but is apparently being changed to armor respecting elemental, not sure if this is a "fix" or just a change. The guild wars damage equation has grown to be a rather behemoth organism of its own that has lots of weird oddities affecting the final damage of any one attack.

HigherMinion · Dec 11, 2011, 09:42 PM // 21:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

It is armor ignoring physical damage. As far as the game is concerned the type of damage has no bearing on whether it ignores armor or not. Whirling Defenses is another skill that deals physical damage, triggers MoP, but ignores armor. Attack skills in general ignore armor even though the damage is physical.

Whether this is a bug or not is debatable. Ancestor's Rage is armor ignoring Elemental damage but is apparently being changed to armor respecting elemental, not sure if this is a "fix" or just a change. The guild wars damage equation has grown to be a rather behemoth organism of its own that has lots of weird oddities affecting the final damage of any one attack.

Or you could just call it indecisive... A bit like multiplicative or additive percentages.......................